Unknown 0:00 We start. Okay. Unknown 0:01 Sure. So, can we start. Of course they couldn't use it for in the court. It's okay. No no no no no no no I won't publish it anyway. Unknown 0:11 So what is your current role in the company and since when I'm in the company since 2004, stop that's a developer, then started doing usability Requirements Engineering, and now at the moment, I'm an HR consultant. Okay, and coach. Okay. But you're basically your job involves talking to customers, right, of course yeah since the beginning because so many of us developer of us a front end guy always. Okay. Unknown 0:47 That's why I started doing usability and the commandments engineering, because when you are on the, on the front end your new customer so you always have to talk to him. If you want to do a good job. Okay. Unknown 0:58 How many years of experience you have in the field of software or mobile development. Unknown 1:05 Whoa, okay, I'm always good with numbers. Unknown 1:09 Nice it hasn't 18. My first job Rachel was it hasn't to. So at 16 he cares. Having a pizza shop, then during my studies I had also chops right selected about 18 years 1820 years. 20 years here yet. Good. And how many years of experience you have, okay lovely you can see with gathering requirements. Unknown 1:34 But so that's 1515. Yeah, great. And what is the academic background on your computer engineer or are you business hope you have both. Unknown 1:45 My background is in software engineering so it's a the them also in the, in the ATL okay and computer science, and that's my original background. Of course when you want to build software you always have to catch up with business background. Unknown 2:03 But it's not an academic background on business or whatever. Unknown 2:07 It's experiences theoretical background is seminars and so on but no high usability education on business things right, read the books of course. Okay. Unknown 2:21 So whatever techniques you use in your company for gathering requirements are talking to clients. Did you look how did you learn those and where did you learn those. Unknown 2:31 I started with disability and usability has a lot of facilitation techniques you use and experiments engineering. Unknown 2:37 By the way, I'm giving also trainings from the IRS, the International Requirements Engineering board. Okay. They have a foundation level and a half and other ones level called La citation and consolidation. So I was keeping also the illustration consolidation training. What I use a lot, because I always had to do with with customers. Correct. They will tell you, There are some companies that we make is engineering, but the product has no customers because the product is a product for all the tools. Unknown 3:07 So they use other techniques, looking at it. In my case, I've always a user at the end. Unknown 3:12 That's why I like to use techniques near by the user. So, for instance, writing scenarios, making prototypes, making walks was the prototype, making hallway tests. Unknown 3:26 Yeah, I like to do, or I use mostly I use tools and nearby the user, okay, but you learned. I mean, did you learn these techniques, when you're doing your unit University days, or no no no no. So this is to experience and self taught rate. This experience reading books. Unknown 3:45 Yeah. Yeah. Great, helping to enter the healthy work on the syllabus for illustration consultation. So he had a lot to read and it's mostly I think its feet experience. Right. Unknown 3:58 Or do you read any ladies latest academic publications or online blogs, articles, etc regarding your show. Unknown 4:04 Not anymore, because I need to know more about a child about this as a charity. That was swift, the last year's. Okay, great. I'll be the motor company now so how many employees do you have Unknown 4:18 no idea. Okay. Unknown 4:22 Ask Peter he knows it. Okay, great. I lost them. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Unknown 4:27 That's prob that's that's okay. Unknown 4:30 When it comes to just, like, Abdullah. Unknown 4:33 So which geographical markets do you target Unknown 4:38 has offices in Switzerland, Germany and Austria and in London. Okay. And what other purposes or development centers or centers. Unknown 4:52 The idea of suitcase to develop the products there where the market is so we of course we have some near showing me showing locations like in Serbia, and now since a year in Bulgaria sentences said work for the other sensors, but we have a market in so in Germany you make a mobile app, or an app for whatever it for Germany, and sometimes you need people from Switzerland because you don't have enough people or visa versa. Unknown 5:23 The new shopping centers in Serbia work for Germany, Switzerland in London. Also they don't have, they don't have. So I think it's the only location we have that on the work for other that work for other markets, not for their own market. So you will essentially in Europe. Right. Yeah. since two years for two years we have in Asia two locations Hong Kong and Singapore. Okay, they also work for local markets they don't are offshoring centers. They are normal two companies working for the local market. Okay. And how many mobile applications how you built so far, roughly, Unknown 6:02 who want to tell you about Switzerland. Unknown 6:08 In the beginning, fees, which were each company has their own mobile app. We of course had of this nonsense apps website would have been better. It was the beginning days. Unknown 6:21 And then we had a lot of apps. Unknown 6:24 Looking for the view of channel, so the mobile is is one channel more the same data. And for that we have done work for, for insurances for banks for health, health centers. Unknown 6:41 So roughly 10 apps on mobile apps. Yeah, more important than me personally, but soon. Okay, okay. And are they free, or they paid, or the publicly available enterprise applications. Unknown 6:54 Already there enterprise application mostly also apps that are freely available from the beginning where each company wants to have an app. Okay, okay. Unknown 7:04 And can you say, like, on an average of Lee how many users. Unknown 7:08 They would have no idea. Okay. Unknown 7:12 Um, so, I mean do you just build mobile applications or software in general. Unknown 7:18 So from general. So I would say for a mobile application is a, is a channel. Okay, so it's a different way to connect the same data. Unknown 7:29 So we don't do not develop games or things only for the mobile, it's a channel plus something to the, to the web Claire channel and get something so you're not mobile intensive company. No, I wouldn't say that. Yeah, okay. We have people's killed the mobile we have people Android experts we have iOS experts, but we are not a mobile company. Okay, which platforms or X dollars to support, or is it both, I mean Android. Google Play and Apple App Store. Unknown 8:02 It's both I don't remember if you still do windows things. We also had a Windows Mobile people, but I have no idea what they're doing now because yeah it's close to me, its history. Unknown 8:15 So we had, we had all native platforms, during the life cycles even before the whole thing that from from Windows for Windows Mobile came they also had some mobile thing. I think it must be Windows Phone three or whatever how it was cold I don't remember. In the early days we also they added mobile application. We also did Java to me. Okay. So, but all of us as an idea, as a general not as a, we want to do now mobile apps, right, we have yet to mobile apps because it makes sense for the customer. Unknown 8:48 So are you are you a product based company or service oriented. Unknown 8:52 We don't have, we don't have our own products or services. We help other companies develop their products or services. Unknown 9:01 In that case, if you are, if you're providing service to other customers. Unknown 9:06 I mean, can you tell me like, on average, how long the projects are on an average Unknown 9:14 couple of months. Unknown 9:18 I mean, I meant to say the, the moment you start collecting requirements until you have your first release. And on an average that how much, how many months that would take. Unknown 9:29 I had projects from four months to six years. Okay. Unknown 9:37 Let me personally, and I think our normal projects have a long lifetime but mutual exchange the people after some years. Okay. So, the longest time I was in the project was because I wanted to also go into the project and I wanted to experience how it is when you have to stay longer with the project, right, sorry about that one release release release I just want to learn from my own arrows, because the consultant you always see the most of the others. Right. You came in, you're the hero, you change something and say, who was a stupid guy that did that for three years ago and this case you have a super guy. So you can learn a lot about, about the internet of requirements gene but also software engineering and right because you're building a mobile app for your customers who decides to platforms Is it you, or is it the customer. Unknown 10:28 It's customer customer Yeah, it's a customer. Unknown 10:32 They get Of course from outside inputs for it doesn't make sense. So, if a company has a support both or three platforms. Then we can we can discuss or outgoing, why some parts maybe should be not native to the shopping HTML. So for instance, putting your passport back is something that many of our companies that I know I have a website so you go out from the app, and the reset your password on the website, because not so. Unknown 11:06 So the use cases with every day. Unknown 11:09 Right, use cases you have often making native and nobody was cases to make it another because it's always a question about confident money. If you do everything in three platforms, you pay a lot. Yeah, so the decision was it depends on the money right. It's a budget issue. Unknown 11:25 It's a bunch of these of us also in my, in my eyes. Unknown 11:28 Question of value. How much value hasn't has a native rotation of password reset that even in sense of what value. So how much value do I get for it. Unknown 11:40 Oh, how much value does the customer gets gets for it so I'm going to say the market share. I mean, if I believe for iOS, then I might have more users. No, no, no, no. The idea is, if I look to the use cases in application, some use cases are not so often. Unknown 11:58 And then the question is for these use cases maybe it doesn't make sense to make it three times negative four platforms. Okay, then it makes sense of these use cases in the in the web, ok ok ok if you leave this case you'll go out of your iPhone app you will out of our Android app, the same web page that you have a responsive website, looking at then you can enter your data there. It's always of course that is essentially a money issue. But I think with this money money, you can do something better connect another feature. And that's where, where our competence of of requirements consolidation for that is it comes in, when you say hey, the episodes people doesn't make sense to make it one, one time the web, responsive, that you can save the money for another feature that is more important daughter that is also cool. Unknown 12:44 But the decision of this like going with particular app store, Google Play or the operating system itself on what factors does it depend does it have is like it's a money issue or is it market related issue. Unknown 12:59 I think depends on the customer, the customers I know has to both because they have to address the whole, the whole market. So the goal is both platforms Android on the Android and iOS, and do you see any trends, like which is more prevalent which is not in the beginning was iOS because Switzerland was was iPhone markets. Now, the Android phones with cheap phones. Unknown 13:25 I think catch up. I think at the moment it's 5050 I'm not sure even more maybe the answer later. Unknown 13:31 I think was missing an iPhone country, right, good. Unknown 13:34 Um, so the development teams in your in your, in your company. It's been especially mobile development companies teams, how they look like. so which roles you have how big they are. Unknown 13:49 I often our organization. We have teams that are specialist teams. Unknown 13:56 And they can't answer the question, honestly, because I'm not far away from development at the moment. Okay, it's not simple development, I'm asking in general so you do have testers do have developers do have project managers. Unknown 14:09 Designers course yeah we have everything. Unknown 14:12 We have also people working with electrical engineers, we have mechanical people will be building also products like ATMs. Unknown 14:22 Yeah, special showing me something, we build for this place so. Unknown 14:28 So we have a lot of people from engineering, mechanical engineering software engineering to business transformation to blockchain to whatever so you really will find someone if you need someone who can the mobile, people should be now in one in one team, but I can't tell you how many people they are that's fine, that's fine. It's a positive they bought they were helping my team and health and other team, and the other half was on Windows. But I have no idea now, where they are and how many do you outsource any work outsource any, any work, no work. No. No. Can we do it. Unknown 15:06 Sometimes the customer has his own agency. So, so, agency and kind of the queen, or the corporate is and this is something, sometimes done externally, because the customer chooses So, but we are able to do it ourselves so we have our own visual designers and so on. Okay, so you have designers and all those, okay. Unknown 15:31 But usually the client has, has his own people. Right. Unknown 15:37 So, in which phases of the project or your customers involved in all in all, from the ideation from the. Unknown 15:46 I don't know about my businesses. Unknown 15:49 It's also now. Now, if a client that has no idea he wants change something has no idea what he wants to go to. Unknown 15:59 We have something end of life and the police can you will just support platform and they just want to get rid of it because they want to do something new and just take the whole bottom bottom in English. Yeah. Unknown 16:11 Yeah, to take the whole life cycle thing until this application dies something we can bring the new one, just maintain yet maintenance maintenance officer dying application, we have everything. Okay, great. Unknown 16:24 So from giving birth to two very good. Unknown 16:29 Do you believe that if a client has some expertise with software development or mobile development, does it influence your work in a good or bad way. Unknown 16:38 We have both we have we have clients that needs us because they need more people because they know with with my three people I can do the whole world concerns a huge project. We have also plan so don't have internally, a software development silo or whatever. Yeah, we have both. Unknown 16:58 As I usually worked with clients that has had have people, and just needed more people and people to be that people have more skills or people that are state of the art. So that's my background was never at the side where the customer had had has no it self. So it was always a cool discussion because you can learn from both sides, they can learn from us, and we can learn how companies work. Right. So do you think it is, it is useful right so it. Yes it is. Unknown 17:30 I think also from the client perspective is useful because usually, in my opinion, you should be able to to to to to run the things yourself, to develop yourself. Unknown 17:40 So you need people in your house, otherwise you have a dependency to external companies. Unknown 17:47 I personally if I will be the client I wouldn't feel well to have everything outsourced. Right. Unknown 17:54 But it's also my background so maybe it's never, never, never eat south. Unknown 18:01 Maybe like it wasn't worth it. So, I'm proud with a little bit of work either way. Unknown 18:08 Do you have like legal experts in house. Yeah, yeah. Unknown 18:13 And what are the purposes usually regarding software development, I mean, are they about doing contracts, India's and so on. Unknown 18:22 Yeah, of course, you can ask them for that. Unknown 18:26 The last time we use it was 14 data protection from Europe, GDP GDP are exactly, But you do not have to outsource the legal work to any lawyer for any form, we outsource it sometimes so so. Okay. Unknown 18:46 As I know yet. Because I met one. Unknown 18:52 Someone from an oil company that helped us in some some issues. So, yeah, we don't do it. Another big company doing everything themselves. We have also we need also experts. When it goes to the PM. Unknown 19:06 So if we consider like from the ideation phase until the initial product release of this lecture this this plan is hundred percent, in terms of time and cost. Yeah, what percentage of it, roughly, would you spend on requirements gathering activities. Unknown 19:24 And do you find any challenges with that. Unknown 19:26 Yeah. Unknown 19:29 Thing is because I used to work in HR most you do the whole time. Unknown 19:35 It's not something say is one year requirements gathering intended to three years. Like it with with Rob before first transaction fees and then I had my implementation of a something that requires genius less than before. You always do it the whole time. Right. So, find a percentage, it's difficult to 20% percent. Right. I want to see similar answers 10 to 20%. Yeah. Unknown 20:01 I think in the beginning it's more, but the thing is don't have to stop because the world is still spinning. If you stopped doing it, so I never never had zero, because I, I noticed some interesting answers here also. So they said, it's really hard sometimes to really make a cut. So now we stopped really gathering requirements or accepting more requirements or changes so that we can really focus on things. What is your experience. I think focus is no problem because you never really never stopped gathering. But the thing is you should know when to go in depth, and when we go in with in broad sort of the problem. Many companies have to go in broad and then the going people with all the requirements and then you'll never finish, and then until you finish the world has changed, and then you have to do something new. So I think the trick is to find a valuable fan too but not only find the balance, to find out what is important. The most important thing, I think, if you're quoting period ization, then it's no problem that never ends because it ends then when you have no value anymore. In been up and then what works, going like, broader going deep. Unknown 21:11 I think you have to go protest in kind of way to see all everything that's on the table. Unknown 21:16 And then you have to find out which is the most important thing which brings the most value out of it. Maybe it's money maybe means that at the ideation phase you go abroad, and when you are doing sprints you go deep. Unknown 21:28 Yeah, but you can also find something new. Unknown 21:31 So it's not finished off of their the ideation maybe during during during implementation you have a new cool idea. Then you have something completely new on the broad can bring something to the table and then it's it's a job of of the portfolio people to look at it and say, Okay, this is really cool. And I think it's worth a try something else. Unknown 21:53 So it's, for me it's not a vis fiscal thing here have now in my head, it's fully slicing slicing slicing and oversee this the most important part of it, and just make this and then after I've seen it maybe the next slide is also important, but sometimes the rest of it is not so important. That's the next thing I have in my hand. Unknown 22:15 So I think the whole a child movement. This idea is not really understand by many people and that's why they think it's it's complicated. Unknown 22:24 So I personally if I talk to people about the value about the about the value they get out or venues that they can deliver for someone. Unknown 22:34 It's really a good thing. If you're able to prioritize and to know what you're doing, that it's no problem that you have thousands of requirements that you have never invested, you know, that is something on the table but we need it comes maybe not it doesn't come and then when it's time to look closer than you look closer. Right. Unknown 22:54 How many clients or stakeholders, or their representatives usually participate in your recitation activities. Unknown 23:04 That is experience what was having more people that there are phases so you should have read with three people together to cancel this technique so if you're doing, if I'm doing a mock ups or from doing a prototypes. And three, four people, but then you have to run it checked with other people. Unknown 23:24 So similar channels it's around three four people, but if you count everyone else around the 1520. Okay. Unknown 23:31 And do you communicate to all of them, or they're just representatives who are who are logged on. I would like to have people that uses the product. So, I don't like to have bosses of people use a separate using the problem where the products are people who think they know what the other people want. Unknown 23:46 That's also a huge problem getting the real users because they have a daily work to do. And then to get them for a workshop. It's really hard and need sort of time to convince the customer that it's really, really important that the boss or someone else has no idea what ski pro doing. They are knowledge worker. You don't know what they're doing this theory of knowledge worker. The boss knows less. Unknown 24:09 Right. Unknown 24:13 How does the communication with your clients look like so is it digital is it face to face, do you face any problems. Unknown 24:19 It's in. But it was really face to face and say room. It's really. Unknown 24:27 Even if a scab will be cheaper, I think it's, you need to touch things, especially if you do. Furthermore, if it were prototypes with paper or whatever, you have to touch it. Right. So, in Switzerland is close it's one hour and a half hour one way so you can kind of range it to see the people. Unknown 24:45 And who is a lot to talk to your clients so even developers can talk to your clients. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. Unknown 24:53 And do you think it is important. Unknown 24:55 I think it's very important, but also the idea is not that every developer chooses to supply and then that gives them a phone call to be a concentrated but of course we can ask firstly product owner your project leads or whatever you have first. But I think it's necessary that this developer has the ability to call someone all together to get the workshop with a real customer. Right. Unknown 25:18 It should have a meeting, getting go just because I can I should call everyone every 10 minutes. Unknown 25:25 But it's really important that they can do it. Unknown 25:28 Who's responsible for doing user or market research. Is it your responsibility or is it a client's responsibility. Unknown 25:37 In my projects, it's a client's responsibility if he forgets its. We have to tell him, don't forget we haven't did some research and there may be assessed with yourself, or find someone. Unknown 25:47 I personally think if you as a client, don't know what you want to do you face your job. Right. Unknown 25:54 And of course, my job is to to to to say hey remember we need that we need this, but I don't foresee that I have to do it, but asked him whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa wants to do it. Unknown 26:03 And sometimes it's cheaper to do it with her expert company then let let developers to week, tweets, or your app users globally distributed, or other just within Europe. Unknown 26:16 In my case, half. Unknown 26:19 At the beginning days was only Europe, or even on the Switzerland's. Unknown 26:24 Now, I have teams in Europe Unknown 26:29 to I have teams outside of Europe, or team members know at the moment not okay. Unknown 26:35 No time is only so she shows up big time zone issues. Unknown 26:41 So if I mean. Now this may not be relevant but you might have even experienced with that so, considering you have global usage across the world. How would you make assumptions about the users. I mean I would imagine our Japanese user is different than Swiss user right. Of course, yeah, of course that's a. Unknown 26:58 Even if like Germany, Switzerland, they are really different. Correct. So how do you make assumptions or how does it work. Unknown 27:05 I think you need people to know the culture of the people using the software the app or whatever. So, making assumptions your own, it's an anti pattern. So you need someone who knows the people. And who knows the culture. Unknown 27:21 Yeah, it's really important that's not making assumptions. Unknown 27:25 You can try it, you can make assumptions, but then you have to be really very agile and make make a hypothesis put it on the market and look how the market reacts. But then if you did, if you did something really stupid stuff, you have reputation problem. Unknown 27:38 So, um, I think it's good to have people, local. Mm hmm. Do you collect non functional requirements as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so you have to copy paste from sister projects. Yeah right, Unknown 27:53 reuse, we use it from other projects are from from from the same, same, not the same fields fields. Yeah, same domain Yeah, same domain. Thank you. Yep, same domain. Unknown 28:08 I do, I mean, we could you name, perhaps, which are the most important ones for you, which you really look at performance or something like that for mobile apps, mobile apps. Unknown 28:22 It just say the beauty of the service of the data as it like design, the performance speed is. Unknown 28:29 It's really a, the ability of the data. So if you're here state on a server that status of the little response time of course. Yeah, of UI elements and also have interactions with the web. Right, so you essentially. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Most of us yeah and Do you get any strong new customers regarding that. Or do you get any inputs from your customers, or is it you will decide because you have more knowledge about it. Unknown 28:56 It's be who decides it's we will decide we also have metrics on the apps, you know, which areas clicked how often if people don't miss clicks. Unknown 29:09 You can get a lot of of data out of the of the apps, do you get some hints from analytics app analytics. Yeah, yeah. Do you use that, like Google Analytics or any service, like in one of my current projects they wrote something themselves I don't know if they're if they use an app, have an open API of of Google, but they know a lot of what is clicked, something nice click through the filter. Try to click on a label and thoughts about them. Unknown 29:40 But I can tell you which technologies. Sure. Unknown 29:43 Could you quickly tell me like which are the most important techniques you use for gathering requirements. Unknown 29:55 For me it's the prototype, making prototypes making scenarios making a use cases. Unknown 30:06 I personally like like contextual inquiry. Unknown 30:14 And with also think it's important to some creativity techniques. Unknown 30:19 Just to cater to the delight us, because otherwise you don't have to live as if you only asked people and the. Unknown 30:26 So sometimes to get crazy ideas, not only brainstorming but a 635 like to also the sixth head thinking. Yeah. Unknown 30:40 So, could you tell me a bit more about the prototyping experience how you do it. Unknown 30:45 Oh, is it costly is it easy is it useful. Unknown 30:49 And so I really use paper and pencil. Okay. Unknown 30:54 Because if you go to the customer, and you just go with a sheet of paper and, or if you asked to come to your office that you have a table full of papers with pens, then the people have no problem just to take the pen and write something in it. Unknown 31:07 So for instance for one company, they decided a completely new, new UI thing that component that never existed, right, because it on paper and thought this could be a cool idea when we had that. And then we decided exactly that components, yourself, never came to the idea of such as components could be a to be needed. Sometimes, I only have me once the really young customer, just put the paper aside and open the network the laptop and start the PowerPoint and started throwing PowerPoints. Uh huh. Tell me one time in my life. All the other times when this year table full of paper and pens and you started staying on the paper to start throwing and writing on the paper. Right. So it's Molas throw a prototypes right. Yeah, so low fat, low fat, low fidelity sorry pencil and paper prototypes, but also my style how I've worked because I think I have no problem to put to throw it away, because I need around two hours to sign something on paper. I'm going to talk to customer, and he or she thinks it's completely stupid what I'm doing. I could just throw it away it was two hours was nothing. Right. But then I had to html5 prototype and then the third one week, and then someone tells me oh gosh it's really does start to are going, why it's a good idea, because when we go for it. I don't want to say, Okay, now work week for nothing. Unknown 32:29 Work two hours for nothing happens. Unknown 32:33 What are your impressions about Minimum Viable products do you build them. Unknown 32:37 Yeah. Unknown 32:38 Yeah. Unknown 32:39 The big problem is not everyone understands with MVP release. But I really like. And, and I love the idea of MVP. Unknown 32:50 I even have things out, that are not MVP, not, not yet MVP. Unknown 32:56 So mostly in Switzerland I think when people talk about the MVP its release, one with a lot of things, and the MVP is much much much earlier. Unknown 33:07 And in my case I like to have to have alpha releases or three doesn't fulfill the MVP, but it's just a first step, you can try with some pilot users something else that even maybe a part of it is still with Unknown 33:23 not finished, I lost like this so does the success of MVP depend on where you're trying to release it. Are you releasing it for all the customers are just for beta users or users from the MVP could also be better users or just a friendly users or already customers have some of my opponent and or whatever. So, doesn't mean that everyone has to use it, that MVP. For me copy earlier. Right. And how would the reactions from customers, because I've heard that. Usually what happens is customers really start believing that this is the end product, and they are not happy with it. Unknown 33:59 Of course yet then. Yeah. Unknown 34:01 That's why I think the MVP should not be with all the people. Unknown 34:05 If you go with the early adopters. Unknown 34:09 Early Adopters have a special way of looking on products. They also are forgiving. If something goes wrong, right. Unknown 34:16 The late majority. Unknown 34:19 They will hang you for the end right critics about it, and the early adopters, are thankful for it to they are part of it. Unknown 34:27 And they are happy that the find errors and can can tell you what could be better. So you really need to people on the MVP, that I think I'm a piece of first customer segments, you have to start with the MVP, you go to your early adapters. Unknown 34:42 And this your first customer segments and then when you go to the next seconds, you have to change your strategy. Right, but then you have your MVP, then you have to invest on stability or non functional requirements. And then maybe even go with a second. Unknown 34:57 All finding people they were to your early adopters and try something out there. Unknown 35:02 So I'm not a fan of trying everything else with every customer because if you bought the phone to my mother. Unknown 35:08 They were at you because she wants thing working right. She doesn't want the TV now the strange things and because she says want to put it on and she works. Okay. Unknown 35:19 Can you tell me. Can you name a few tools which you use within your company. Regarding requirements gathering engineering management visibility, even for development purposes or project management, etc communication. Oh, now you will hear an answer. If you'd like it's our customers have to select doors. Unknown 35:42 Your name it. Unknown 35:44 So you have all you have to three directed customers usually have me personally, I like to work with paper with real house a lot of low fidelity there with with HR reports or something like that. Unknown 36:01 Of course, if you don't need electricity or something right record of things, usually the customer has already his own tool that we use his two. Okay, so use the customer tools. Right. Okay. Unknown 36:16 Do you also collect privacy and security requirements activity Unknown 36:22 to help me about our privacy requirements for you, data privacy requirements. Essentially, so do your customers give you input, or they have some demands that okay, Unknown 36:34 or security related things like how the app should be secure and what are the implications complication. Okay, of course if you are consultants you always have. Unknown 36:43 Sometimes the internal security guys. Unknown 36:46 You have internal audits. Unknown 36:49 You can get an input from there from the end customers, I had never heard about such requirements are many people that customers usually do not have no from the users now. Unknown 37:03 Maybe people test with the users to see so via tele to have to insert my phone call phone number here doesn't make sense. Just want to order online at Pizza. For instance, yeah. So why do I need my phone number here. Unknown 37:15 Both of these things you here is only if you do usability tests. Unknown 37:20 Otherwise, yeah. Unknown 37:22 Complaints in a forum for the Bible says ever gotten much by Do I need to allow our satellites and so on and so on. Unknown 37:36 But this comments you have in a forum but a personal. Yeah. Unknown 37:40 So could you tell me. Unknown 37:42 In your opinion, what are the major differences between an app development and general software development. Unknown 37:48 Do you see any differences. Unknown 37:53 I can also give you some hints afterwards. But let's first hear from you. Unknown 37:58 Yeah. Unknown 38:01 I think the big difference is Testing. Testing. Yeah, because you really have to test it on the devices have been software development that we have revised is already device your programming on someone. And anything mobile development you have so you have this cap simulated on your laptop on your PC, and your test on your PC and not simulation but the standard time you have mobile phones and maybe, especially in the Android departments that behave differently, right, that you really have to test it on the real devices, and that's, I think, if you do a test first or a child, you really need a person who's whistling only testing and agile testing, which, when you do with normal software development, use just the skill sets that everyone has with it with him, or with her and then it's ok and the mobile, I think you need the next person just doing the testing. Right. And even if you do yourself automated and so on, you still need someone Unknown 39:06 do. Can you think of anything else. Unknown 39:10 How about prototyping so you use, let's say just pen and paper by the people who really do prototyping very sophisticated. And I heard that they have to do it multiple times for different devices and for multiple platforms. Yeah, so it is much extensive intensive like prototyping itself is intensive for mobile development. Yeah but, no, I think if you should make your mobile app potential dollars to a paper prototyping on that platform and you have two platforms, then it looks different, it's okay for me because he doesn't usually don't have me as a person I don't have an iPhone and an Android. No idea what the iPhone is doing. Unknown 39:48 Maybe if a company has an iPhone and then I wonder why this application is different for him and for me, but usually it would be perfect for my needs, and Android, sometimes work differently than iPhone. So for me it's completely okay to have two separate lines, and the application has a different features, even in Android and iPhone. Unknown 40:07 So maybe I can do something in Android with the iPad and not able to eat an iPhone and visa versa. Okay, because of close the API is there are there are some API's and an iPhone, closed, you cannot use it as an as an app. In order to use it. So why not give disadvantage, specifically to the user. Because don't allow an iPhone, they will be another really smart decision from the, from the business people like. Unknown 40:33 Another difference what I've heard is so far as when you are developing web applications, especially, you have an ability to deploy changes as many times, even in a day is possible. But when it comes to mobile app menu are kind of limited by app stores, because they have their own workflows, just yet. Yeah. So do you think it is kind of an issue, or issue or let's say it's a different. Unknown 40:57 It's a huge difference. But I heard from from from iPhone the oldest need to also need time to check it correct clarifications on Android. Unknown 41:05 They don't check it really but then I found this check. So, you cannot be sure that when, for instance, here you plan to to to make a huge market lounge, whenever we would have to take care of the dates are correct and the to hope that these episodes to iPhone store comes through on the on time getting in Android it's easier but also you cannot book fix fast. Yeah. So, it needs more time is again planning. Yeah, and it's more time and planning and the. If you do want to do something a huge market launch like a big bomb needs really planning and maybe also asked the people from from iOS or whatever. Unknown 41:47 I don't know it yet, it's also really, really difficult. Do you think non functional requirements, they play a different role in case of mobile apps than normal web application software Sophos. Unknown 42:00 I don't think so I don't think so. Okay, I think it's different, but it's also the same. Unknown 42:05 So, you have two and a half hours, maybe they are not exactly the same, but they are as important as an interesting comment from one of the interviews he said, usually, if users are using web application. And if the app is kind of slow, they kind of try to the end up blaming the browser. Unknown 42:25 But when it comes to mobile the thing gets the problem of the developer or anything like that. Unknown 42:36 I don't know, to be honest, speculation. Unknown 42:40 So when I take from my experience. Unknown 42:43 The cool mobile utilize that have the whole time this is the Wheeler at the loading we'll do not blame the developer. Now see that as a legal air and I know he's doing some stupid data collecting and the don't blame, don't blame the network rates, as opposed to play in the middle and say okay, I like five and a half for cheap and I see okay it's 14. So maybe a vacation, it's not a well written source, they get cash something or the kingmaker, the loading difference, but I think because I'm professional, so maybe I tried to blame the developer anyway. Yeah. Unknown 43:20 So I can't give you a good answer. Yeah, good qualified answer. Unknown 43:25 What do you think are the biggest challenges in collecting requirements for mobile apps. Unknown 43:33 For example, unforeseen, I'm the mobile app can be used in many situations, unpredictable situations and so on. Unknown 43:40 So does it influence also. Okay. Unknown 43:43 The way you collect requirements. Unknown 43:46 Or does it need much more thought than normal web application. Unknown 43:50 I think at the moment, no in the beginning, I think was more difficult because you forgot things. But when I remember right, developers always came and say okay now maybe you don't have the network as you have it at all. Unknown 44:04 So they also in the early days, Unknown 44:10 care for instance, often responsive websites, the whole video and images, and the beginning so you have to find techniques to do it differently because they don't want to download the whole video on a mobile phone with the connections you have phenomenal flat rate. I think now it's somewhat difficult to think that people know that there are differences. And the care of themselves so the normal experiencing. Over the years, and etc etc so if you start now your own company no idea about mobile and just came out to the server world, you will have your big wonder, can you pick a ha moment. So I think you need to experience. And we fixed. So, we already had experience so that's why it's easier to the app or native Windows application because they have the experience from years. Unknown 44:54 Now if he if you have five six years, six games in mobile, I don't think it's a big difference. I think you also mentioned like not having real access to the end users is also kind of difficult for mobile especially if you put the same problem and also for not mobile app so if you have a call for the for the mass market. Just the same problem so it's not a question of if it's mobile on autopilot. The question is for them for the mass market, or is it for or is the market just that the employees of the customer. Unknown 45:27 Yeah, I think this is a different question this question and other mobile, mobile. Okay. Unknown 45:32 Any decisions which you make during your solicitation process. Unknown 45:36 or do they depend on external factors such as different versions of operating systems, or external libraries and their versions and so on. Unknown 45:44 things right, of course, for sometimes you have to use some libraries sometimes you have to use some tools. Unknown 45:51 Yeah, It depends him. Great. Unknown 45:55 Do you consider any troubles, that might be faced by spatial users such as old people, or blind people. Yep. Yep. Unknown 46:03 So for instance, we had one wants a project. Unknown 46:07 Sorry for the second one cannot explain it. Yeah, sometimes we have products, even if you do product development that all the people he was so they are tactical difference. Unknown 46:17 They can't cannot work with small buttons. They don't see very well get enough to not pick the dark FFF tightly to partner or whatever. So again, you have to care for it if you have people using that kind of device application, whatever. So you make conscious decisions regarding that. Yeah, of course. Okay. Unknown 46:38 So some years ago, even app stores used to have strange constraints such as for Android you had maximum number of methods which you can have all the size of the application. Unknown 46:48 Did you meet ever such constraints. Unknown 46:54 I don't remember anymore, to be honest. Unknown 46:58 Okay, so I'll ask you know we have you guys, I mean, these are now this is like a rapid fire, so I give you a few keywords, and you just tell me if these things are crucial for app. Unknown 47:09 Okay, yeah I'm development or success of the power consumption. Unknown 47:15 Yep. Yes, different mobile devices. Okay. Yes. Yep. A third party libraries and divergence I think you already said yes to this. Yeah. Unknown 47:27 Mobile advertisements and revenue generation through it. Unknown 47:34 Not by market. Okay, so you don't see that customers are really wanting to put ads on the apps to get money. Unknown 47:44 It's because it's not my environment at the moment it's at the moment I have five as clients, making apps for their own employees enterprise. Okay, yeah, getting I think clearly and then it's nope no not getting user feedback on app stores or social media platforms. Unknown 48:04 You should work with it yeah and keep it answers and then they get someone trained to disappear has the skills to answer correctly. Do you do that. Unknown 48:14 Yep. Okay, either. People that are specialists on it or some skilled people in the team do you do it manually or do you have any automated tools for that manually data privacy. I think it is a concern nowadays. Yeah, any legal constraints. Yeah, of course. Great. Unknown 48:36 So now we have just two questions and I just want to reflect. I want you to reflect on it. So what are your impressions about hybrid applications, about hybrid applications they don't necessarily. They're good they're bad or what are the pros what are the cons, if they are only hydrates then after it's a bad idea. Unknown 48:54 Mm hmm. So, I think my personal opinion is that the most. Unknown 49:00 The main use case should be native. Unknown 49:03 And the other use case could be hybrids, or copy or whatever. But the main use case will be native it's a completely different feeling it's not only look and feeling and CPF different feeling safe to hybrid apps. Unknown 49:14 It doesn't look like an Android and iPhone app, it looks different. Unknown 49:19 It feels different. Unknown 49:21 And the way you navigate this difference it necessarily, it does not mean necessarily worse. It is just different right. Yep. Yep. Okay and. Do you also observe that I mean if the app users more native features than hybrid is not a good choice, or anything like that. Yeah. Unknown 49:41 Yeah, I think so. Is it more cheaper to build hybrid apps. Unknown 49:46 I think for some reason why we're doing it you can make it a habit and have it for all platforms, mostly all right. Unknown 49:52 What are the implications about progressive web apps, Unknown 50:02 would be promising. Unknown 50:04 Are they like mature enough are not mature enough, will they occupy some space in mobile industry, Unknown 50:18 difficult to say. So for example, I bought. I bought a couple of answers here which are interesting, so I could not think about them. So one of the ways he said, they are actually good in the sense, you can bypass the app stores and still give the mobile experience where users. Unknown 50:35 Exactly. But the same problem with with hybrid apps. Unknown 50:43 It looks the same for every for every phone. Unknown 50:48 But it's not doesn't look like native. It doesn't feel like native if you if you really want to make it platform specific, then you have to do many platform specific things. Unknown 51:01 times. Yeah. Okay. So I think in the case of bypass the App Store could be a good idea, but I'm not sure if the feeling is through the same. Unknown 51:11 So for instance, in the early days of of JavaScript, having three opening. Unknown 51:17 Like in the eclipse environment so imagine you open your packages. Unknown 51:21 This feeling it looks the same. Unknown 51:24 But it was slower, but not as slow as you complain but slow enough that you say, each time, I think. Unknown 51:33 No. I also want to really interesting more but I think it's a ticket to slow the complaint but you feel it that it's not the same, so I know I got a, I got a very interesting comment about this so the company I interviewed, they are doing exclusively hybrid applications, there, and he said, this discussion essentially about the performance and being different experience. It is made, usually by 10 guys and not by end users so and users are not so sophisticated, cookie, cookie, I'm open to maybe from my own craftsmanship it's a toss, get it. I know I can do it better. Maybe I think by to do it better, but yeah, could be also economic economic decision to say okay if the end user. Don't feel the difference. Unknown 52:25 Then I can make it cheaper Yeah, of course. Unknown 52:28 But then the next question is, are they able to navigate to the vacation because they learn that from older people or people not skilled at it native people take, they use their mobile because they are used to it. Right. When you go then to an application on the web. Unknown 52:44 And that's a different kind of a working with it, maybe the Back button or the back button the box. Unknown 52:50 As the shoot or some some hot buttons work right David start not understand application. Unknown 52:57 Great. So I think we are almost done. I mean, we are done, essentially, and in time. Unknown 53:03 First of all, thank you very much for the time You're welcome. You know, I think I think I'll stay in contact somehow, because I think there will be a lot to hear from you. Otherwise, apart from this project also. Unknown 53:14 Maybe I'll try to visit. Unknown 53:18 In some time to. Yeah. Cool. Perfect. Thank you very much. You're welcome, you're welcome and difficult work with your case. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, hear from you. Yet Bye. Bye. This transcript was generated by https://otter.ai