Unknown 0:04 So what is your current role, and since. Unknown 0:07 So I'm project manager project manager. Unknown 0:11 May last year. Unknown 0:14 So it's been almost a year. Almost a year. Unknown 0:17 And what you. I'm team lead mobile. Unknown 0:21 Since last June and before that I was for I'm still I'm still I'm a software engineer that for the last six years. Right. Unknown 0:35 So how many years of experience you have with software development or mobile development for me six years, six years into two and four you account the last 12 to. Unknown 0:50 Perfect. Unknown 0:52 And how many years of experience you have, with only one requirements. Unknown 0:58 I guess. Unknown 1:00 Yeah, yeah. So, until you see the last year, more or less, but yeah. Unknown 1:09 Yeah, perfect. And what is your academic background so on your computer or engineers or business to business I studied international international business. Unknown 1:21 And you have a software engineer software engineer. Unknown 1:27 By any chance to read anything. Maybe academic publications or papers, or let's say comment dogs have articles regarding your book. Unknown 1:37 I have my magic is but it's something different. Okay, so how about you. I read about suffrage noon, or it's quite a lot. Yeah, okay. Unknown 1:49 I read, or publish know usually as Polish read your blog posts, but not academic papers or yeah that's not Unknown 2:06 okay. Unknown 2:09 Whatever techniques you use together requirements. Unknown 2:12 Where did you learn and how did you learn. Unknown 2:17 I learned that my, my studies. Together recovered. But actually, because I'm not normally in really gathering the requirements, because I'm a software engineer, so I'll more into, like, how should I call it. Do you have to talk to customers. Sorry, do you have to talk to customers, clients. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's fun. Yeah. Unknown 2:44 So normally it's actually like face to face so just into the declarative sentence or two experience. Yeah. Yeah, perfect and how would you want me to say like learning by doing this. Okay, cool. and from others, come on board. Unknown 3:03 Let's talk a bit about company, these answers it will be same for both of you so how many employees do you have here, 2929, Unknown 3:15 and which other geographical markets, you target is it yellow, or was it mostly Switzerland, Switzerland. Okay, there are some, we have some customers abroad, but do you have any offices, know Unknown 3:32 how many apps do you have so funny. Unknown 3:43 Three count like Android and iOS mobile apps, but the same app for different platform is well known as to, I think that should be one should be well, okay. Unknown 3:55 I mean, we did a lot in the last 10 years so make it over to you can give me a rough number so 10 plus. Unknown 4:07 Now, I think it's between 1020 1020, Unknown 4:15 or the free or paid for. Unknown 4:18 Most of them are free, most of the computer and are the public apps or the enterprise apps or that's most public apps public apps. Unknown 4:29 And how many users, on average, would you say Unknown 4:35 the question, and I get to it let's put it, by the way, so which is, which has the maximum number of users, and how much, how many I think the maximum is micro with around. Unknown 4:47 10,000. Unknown 4:53 Something about the policies now. So, do you enforce any specific language within the company like official language, Swiss German. Unknown 5:06 Good. Unknown 5:08 Do you build on the mobile apps. Also, software, in general, no also web apps. So, yeah, and what's the host a distinction What is more, what is this all in sequel. I think it's more or less than equal, equal, Unknown 5:25 which platforms to separate for mobile apps. It's an Android iOS to vote, vote, vote, and who decides the clubhouse your other clients to normally we decided together with the client to do give any kind of advice. Yes. So we normally advise them to know actually it really depends on. So normally. It really depends on what what the product is so we have like apps which are for both platforms, especially if they are like public apps. Then we have for the ones which are just, they have any objections to customers. Does it so that, yeah. Unknown 6:09 That also depends. Normally it's actually the project team who decides which, you know, first or which by from the support. Unknown 6:21 Good. Unknown 6:24 See what we have next. Unknown 6:27 Okay, oriented or service oriented company to Unknown 6:34 what we do the product but as a service around customers. So, essentially customers come to you and they asked for the product exactly yeah but you don't have your own product and service based. Unknown 6:49 In that case, of how long usually the project. Last, on average, there's, there isn't an average. I mean, you can tell me the, like, the project child, which was the the the shortest one. Yes, some apps. Yeah. Unknown 7:10 Just development or with like entire thing is the shorter the most probably you probably. Yeah. Unknown 7:23 And the longest one is the Motorola, we developed in 2011 so it's time for some news, here's what I was asking. Since the client comes to you and you do that okay let's go to the other. Unknown 7:39 And until you have your four threes, that's normally between. It really depends on how big the because we have like small, small projects, which the first is maybe after a month. And then our, there are large ones were the first. The last we released was after 10 months. Unknown 8:08 Hello. Unknown 8:09 So how did it look like in your company. Unknown 8:13 We have mixed teams, so we have everything is in house so we do have a lot of designers here. Unknown 8:22 Concept constructors. Unknown 8:26 And then of course developers and one p project manager protein, and they're actually normally do project based. So, so you have one tm perhaps project manager at a couple of developers so how many developers, usually are normally minimum of two developers, up to the largest. They're big they're like 77. Unknown 8:54 Okay. And do you have any stats testers, or towards deployment engineers, no, no, no, we have no if we use testers and we taken out. Unknown 9:06 The company, which was testing, and as a project manager, what is your role. Unknown 9:12 Exactly. Unknown 9:14 It depends on the project sometimes we try to like step blue, we hadn't let's talk the technique, depending on the project, but also in tech lead. Unknown 9:27 Just if the project is like a bigger project, and small one that is our top like we ride the task we, you know, kind of the, I don't know. Unknown 9:39 The order between the customer and in house developers so we take their wishes to the developer so you gotta, you have to find you. Yes, ma'am. And try that everyone does the exact same thing at the same time, in which phases of the project higher customer spends on the project we applied projects where the customers involved in every step so it's scrummage So, like, after each sprint the customer comes into our office and developers present to them. And then we have other projects where it's, they're involved in the beginning and in the end. Okay, and what's a question what works best. Unknown 10:20 I'll ask you this because my impression was that customer should be involved, always. Yeah. Unknown 10:27 And usually people are able to like that that they should be always there yeah so that you can be a giant. Yeah, exactly. The last company visited, he said, that doesn't work with us at all really having a customer always kind of key always gets new ideas and kind of pushes to these ideas, and you had to kind of add to it. So yeah, they do, for example, we just had an. In the beginning, then they developed out of dialogue. And then we have a release, and we just asked services what is, what is your, which is surprising for me, but I will say we try more and more to is more, I mean we have for sure kickoff workshop in Paris, maybe two hours, that's for sure I was in 99% of all project we have done so the clients that for sure. It will be raining. After that, we try to, like, not to still up for three months and then like here. Okay, to see for that. Unknown 11:28 I think we also switched to more more a child or involving the customers because the actual depresses ration on the customer side as well as on also on our side is far less if we involved anymore. Unknown 11:46 Do you think that if your client or customer is has some experience with mobile development. Unknown 11:55 Does it influence your work. Unknown 11:57 In a good way or bad way, either. Unknown 12:03 Or what else, if the customer has no idea of software development, they asked for me as a project manager, it's definitely easier if he knows a little bit to communicate. Because you realize when you write something. Unknown 12:19 And he just doesn't get it in something called state because they don't like to say I don't understand it. So, that's for sure easier if he had a clue. Unknown 12:28 But if we don't have any pictures, kind of push him in the direction you want to so it's good for you can both be for me at protocol it, I know, I know, I guess. Normally, we don't really have a lot of customers who have knowledge in mobile development but there are some which just like knowledge in software development, and that normally helps because they can like shelf, what is a complicated problem and what is easy to solve. Okay. Unknown 13:01 Good. Unknown 13:02 Next questions are about. Unknown 13:04 It's a bit off topic but we will come back to this later so this is about security and legal things which are usually more focus for me. Unknown 13:16 The tricky part. So, Unknown 13:21 now we go we did to the team itself. Unknown 13:28 Could you describe the process of how we usually. Unknown 13:35 And later on, when the customer comes to you and how it proceeds after that. Unknown 13:42 Normally the customer comes to us with an idea. And then we have a kickoff kickoff workshop where we like elaborated, and then we usually do a concept phase, which is maybe one or two weeks, where we do like UX concept, as well as technical concept. And then after that, the concept gets presentation to the, to the customer again. And then we decided we watch what features we should start poking any specific method to use for the virtual, you know, yes we do But I don't like just normal brainstorming with post its or we have called. Unknown 14:32 Things like macros. It really depends on what about talking, talking, and yeah, it's more about talking and brainstorming with me off mute posted, or like this, right on the window here. Okay, or just graph notes on paper, just like that. Yeah. Unknown 14:53 But we usually create, we create personas and he was just so, so. Okay so, when does this happen. Exactly, and the concept phase. So, of the client or. Yeah, normally we create them and then we have another meeting with the client if if the persona suits personas and user stories I suppose for you, because they're not for the clients. Yeah, there are the client, the October. Yeah. So we discuss the personas with them and user story so that we see if they match his wishes or this interpretations and some customers they are in column with our user stories like they present their ideas already have written down personas. Unknown 15:37 So, so that kind of eases the work for you guys. Yeah. So, Unknown 15:43 what percentage of budget in terms of time and costs to delegate for the initial part where you get the requirements. Unknown 15:50 Yeah, I like the cost that concept phase us by thing is, I would say it's around 10 to 20%, I just roughly, look at the numbers. Unknown 16:03 But yeah, it depends again. If it's like more inside. Let's design core concept, I would say roughly 10% of the reasons why people. Unknown 16:13 The, I wouldn't know actually. Unknown 16:17 And do facing challenges in that particular case, in this ideation or concept phase. Unknown 16:25 I think if the hard part is like when faces, like, it's like to make that call to now, we're done with the concept and going to the development. Unknown 16:37 The challenge of it. There's no problem, because you cannot really say like, it's. There is no answer. It's a good or a bad exact concept so I think that's the challenge to, to make clear to the customer that they have to decide. At one point, it's not like an ongoing face or for years. Yeah, what I was going to ask is, is it, is it difficult to get answers from the customers all day okay always they have clear ideas and they are complete answers. Unknown 17:09 Now normally it's. It really depends on how many people are involved, and the, a lot of time there are like a lot of ideas there. And then also they. Unknown 17:23 Nobody wants to decide something so that's actually the world. That's not okay. So they have like too much respect from each other so No, nobody really wants to decide. Are we are like proceeding, how do we tackle this Unknown 17:42 law. Last time we just told them that they have to decide somebody who has like the last related question so how many clients usually participant in this process. Unknown 17:54 And the kicker for sure, with normally between six and six and eight. Yeah. Unknown 17:59 Okay. But I mean it really depends on. Unknown 18:03 I think you have one representative who is responsible so you don't fall. Unknown 18:09 No such thing. Unknown 18:12 So the six and eight people will have their own ideas. Yeah. Unknown 18:15 Yeah, but actually normally there's like one person who has the project or is the project manager from from the client side. So he or she should decide, or push the decision. Okay. Unknown 18:29 But It normally takes a bit of time until they see their role and have you have you have you ever noticed that your clients face any problems in this process Unknown 18:43 before they can decide, or maybe they're not sure if they have to design or let us decide as experts and so I think that's Unknown 18:55 so usually there is no frustration from clients or customers in any in any ways. Of course there's Unknown 19:04 no I mean, I think that a hard time you imagine what it's going to be and look like so we we try to fix that with with my friends and stuff so they can really imagine how the product looks like, and feels, but mockups wire frames Yeah, you do it extensively. Yes, pretty, so we're, we're designed first company so I think that's, we do prototype, but only if it suits job, we don't do it just always so normally for hard problems or stuff. How about MVP. Minimum Viable products which rides that. But we were so lucky. So, because we had customers said they want, just an MVP, but then they realized, or we realized actually that they, they want more than an MVP. Because you. Unknown 20:09 It really depends how big your companies, but if it's a big company, you can't go to market the MVP because that's you know you're not a start up anymore. Right, yeah. so no project and most part they can focus on so long that it will because it gives the customers wrong impression. Unknown 20:33 They start believing that this is the final product. Unknown 20:36 And it is not finished so they're kind of unhappy. Yeah, it kind of discourages them. Unknown 20:42 But yeah, what do you try to do with the MPL know most love ya know MSRP, at least for local so it's a bit more than a heavy, but it's, yeah. I'm told us the communication look like particular. So, is it more face to face meetings or emails, how shy wireless like face to face that they come here. And then we use like, you know, clients, so we try to avoid email. Okay, so we use like. Unknown 21:19 The more I use, like the last maybe two or three months, Skype here. So, but I try to avoid an email, and telephone, any challenges with your friends. Unknown 21:38 Are there any challenges that you face in this communication. Unknown 21:43 Let's say it's again, like how many people are involved, if you have just like you have your the project manager on our side and you have one person on the other side and it's very contentious like rights. So that's fine. But if there are more people involved on the client side, then he gets older, so they write an email, the other one calls you Unknown 22:08 and who is allowed to talk to them, so visit just you, Like, do management kind of people or so the developers, that's again we try to define these promos spending on the project so if it's a bigger project we have project where the tech lead to talk directly to the client. So, I'm not like, otherwise I will get the question from the client thing, bring the question to the developer, take thanks so let's just make no sense. So then we try to like direct communicate from tech lead to customer. Unknown 22:41 Do you have any answer. Yeah, sure. Unknown 22:45 I mean, regarding. Unknown 22:47 If I talk to them or to that topic. Okay. And I think they already said most of the two. But what we also do is like communicate through the tickets. So we have like. Unknown 23:02 Normally in how to use a sauna as a ticketing system but we are also like China customers. So there's a lot of communication. Unknown 23:12 So you're giving customers are Bob, I mean they are doing volunteer. Yeah. Okay. Unknown 23:19 So it really depends on the project and I mean we have also right now we have a project there. Unknown 23:26 We are with the customer one day a week so actually not Tuesday, it should be there. So talking with them and like liberating the next phase of development and I think I'm putting in using this point even slack. Unknown 23:44 Most of our slides yes to now move over most of them it's too complicated. All right, yeah. First like yeah, we features. We don't have to approach it from zero Unknown 23:58 to one, we actually tried to do is that if the customers. Normally, if first goes to the project manager with the question, and then project manager tells him if he should go directly to the developer or not so I think it's really important for us, the developer can also work like or less time to work and concentrate. So what we don't want to do is that he gets a lot of questions directly from the customer. So you are waiting basically that he can directly to an interesting project clearly defined a tech lead. Otherwise, communication. Unknown 24:42 So with responsible for doing market research or user research for your projects. Is it your responsibility or two clients and they do it. Unknown 24:54 Yeah, we offered them to do it by our. So we do it, but normally they want to do it in your company. Unknown 25:05 Yes, more or less, not really deep expertise, because usually deployed does device expert. I know we have so many different brands in the industry through looking for so become experts in all of my call so it's usually decline. Yeah. But do you like to support me to wait what instruments, you can use to get stuff like expert interviews and stuff so your users app uses otter globally distributed or just specific to Switzerland on defense. Unknown 25:42 Most of yeah we have like apps which are distributed all over Europe. Unknown 25:48 So there that that has, like, how many languages are in there like 30. Okay, 23. Unknown 25:59 Bam. Nice. Yeah, maybe. Unknown 26:03 23 or 28. European languages. Yes, I think, but like from Portugal to Russia so it's like okay. In that case, how do you make assumptions about this distributed users and their preferences. Unknown 26:22 And I would imagine a Japanese user would be much different. Unknown 26:26 Yeah, yeah, I think the the thing is that they all work for a Swiss company, so I guess I don't really think that the company did any research so they're just forcing them to use it still works. Until now Yeah. Unknown 26:43 Okay. Unknown 26:45 And otherwise, I mean most of our users are sweet space. Unknown 26:50 There are some, we also did like an app for the month region. So I mean there are a lot of tourists there and Unknown 27:01 do you collect any non functional requirement. Unknown 27:06 I think so. Non functional requirements, non functional requirements would be if you're living attack. So, functional part would be, what did you do, and the non functional part is, how would you do so it comes with security performance crashes design, and so on. So you do gather requirements for these particular things from your customers. Yes, yes. Unknown 27:33 And could you read the beginning. Yeah. Unknown 27:35 And could you perhaps name a few of them, which are most prevalent. Unknown 27:45 Do you mean just like design, or like methods how we gather them. No, no, it's not about the mentor. For example, let's say we are building an app for me knows, perhaps, so your functional requirement would be a user should be able to add products to the cart and non functional requirement would be how fast or how many steps they should be able to delete. So would you collect these information from the customer as when you decided Unknown 28:22 to sign sign. Unknown 28:25 Yeah, I agree, this interaction design the sites it most of it, but there are some required. Unknown 28:35 Like, or maybe two options data so things in non functional requirement like the processing time. So, some customers really have very stringent requirements that this particular operation should take less than one second. Unknown 28:52 I'm an actress this happens in big companies like because they have big. Unknown 28:56 Yeah. So, so yeah we do that some with not always doing it but sometimes do it and yeah, for example, for the project for me grace we did it so that like the requirement and that there has to be like for the fuses at the same time and on the page. Exactly. So, so we did like a load test and stuff like that, too. I think that also depends on the customer I mean if it's, like, Yeah, something for me grow, they already know their users or is just the enterprise website or sometimes they come and they have a good idea about the requirements for this website or just. Unknown 29:39 And some of them they didn't even thought about it and then you ask him Do you like to know. Unknown 29:45 Funding for sample date for that are not protected, which was an. Unknown 29:51 She guides so you should use on the feast. And dad and not requirements were too, so you can exit one hand, for example, so that you don't have to take it out of pocket right and stuff like that it shouldn't use too much better is. Unknown 30:08 I mean, of them yeah that's right action, you're getting input from the customizer for these things for us actually those things came from us, but it really depends on the customer how much is involved and how much he already knows some on the field of development. Unknown 30:27 Do you use any group session methods with clients. Unknown 30:31 So you use workshops, workshops, but we don't have like a specific method we use all the time or just try to adapt on the customer. Unknown 30:41 Do you have any insights, how efficient they are coach time they take. Unknown 30:47 I actually terms of to hoppers about. It's not really time consuming all together all these people together and make it talk. Unknown 31:01 It's hard to say there was a we have a project right now which we are like a lot of workshops with the customer. Unknown 31:10 So there it was necessary and then there are customers which exactly know what they want. So, there is Unknown 31:22 this might be done some parts will be no but I know they have any mobile tools on any features of mobile devices which was quite nice addition. The Gathering requirements. Unknown 31:35 Like user location or cameras for example. Unknown 31:40 So, Unknown 31:45 for example, are you aware of any requirements gathering tools, Unknown 31:52 really actually can because we see a lot of obligations in academia, lot of struggles. Unknown 32:00 Okay, now we don't really use to 45 minutes getting. I mean, what we do we actually, if for updates we normally use like tools like analytics and stuff to see what people really are using. And like feedback for, for example in the book, I don't know, but they can get direct feedback inside the app to to get our theme song thing doesn't vertical. For instance, in stomach. Yeah. Unknown 32:34 Ok. Unknown 32:36 So, we also use Google Analytics. Yeah, actually almost every year. Unknown 32:43 So it's it's something a good indication of the user acceptance Yeah exactly, and to really see what what what functionality they really use because what I heard last time was Google Analytics analytics will be dedicated way so yeah it's called Five voice and what it takes now but slowly changing. Unknown 33:03 Okay. Unknown 33:05 Do your customers hands on so so they don't really have a preference for a consistent operating system. Unknown 33:12 We're actually now we have a new customer wants to do Android first. So, yeah. How do you will see the market I mean for you, at least. What is preferred more iOS or Android four is equal Unknown 33:28 in 3d, I think, until some years ago it was mostly here had changed. Yeah, he changed, it is changing from is when right now so, yeah. Unknown 33:41 But we, what we also saw is that like if most of the people have an iPhone in the project team from the customer then they want to do. I know it's nice and everything around so Unknown 33:56 we will hybrid apps. No, not at all. No, not yet. We are always like thinking about it. Unknown 34:05 But until now we never did. Unknown 34:08 And what is the impression about hybrid apps. Unknown 34:15 I mean there are like hybrid technologies, which works really well. Like somebody in this one example, or. Unknown 34:25 I'm pretty skeptical about React Native but more because it's from Facebook so yeah they already had other technologies which which has discontinued and stuff like that. And, but otherwise like hybrid dynamic and stuff so yeah be technical about it yeah I can't take it seriously because you just feel that it's not really native and, okay. So an interesting discussion about this, my previous. In my previous interview. Unknown 35:01 They do exclusively hybrid application. Okay. The digital native application. Unknown 35:07 Couple of years back, so he said the discussion about performance is usually done by tech guys. And it is not at all from end users. And usually end users are not even somewhat sophisticated to notice this differences. Yeah. What did he say about that. Unknown 35:26 Yeah, I can see his point but I think, or I evaluate the hybrid that. Some, like two weeks ago. And they were there was like stuff. Unknown 35:39 Like buttons which you had to press twice. Sunday very good worked so I'm pretty sure that the customer can charge if it's happening or not, but he still has the discipline to choose right. Yeah, so even so, even though he doesn't see it. Is he can still feel that the performance is one of the major concerns with it. Yes, yeah. Everything is Unknown 36:06 the only thing which I think the customer also feels is that if hybrid apps are cheap hybrid apps they look the same on Android and iOS, and the customer. I mean, like, some years ago it was most of the companies who build like an Android app that just took their iOS app and be the same. Like, it looks the same. It was, It was the same to using it, and Android users didn't like it because I mean it's not Android but it's another net operating system. And that's a thing that also is, if you want it to happen, right, then you have to lie to a lot of things twice anyway because you have to do it like the operating system system that was thought. Do you have any opinion about that. Unknown 37:01 I can really chat. Okay. Okay. Unknown 37:06 Which tool to use in house for in general requirements, tracking or management. Unknown 37:13 I think you don't use it for Catholic but others. So he was God said already, anything else. Unknown 37:20 Yeah, JIRA Asana actually has to do with external clients so we don't have our children, but Asana so so Unknown 37:32 tool we use those tools. Harvest for time tracking harvest. Yeah. Unknown 37:42 forecast for time planning Unknown 37:50 for documentation now on Google Docs, yo. Unknown 37:57 Like Google's, but is it okay because you mentioned, Google Docs. Unknown 38:03 It's just for internal purposes or also with the customer. So the customer on it okay because you store data on. Actually our, we actually moved all our data to Google Europe. So you can like have that so they have to comply with GDPR. Yeah. So you're saying, in that sense, yeah. Okay, and most of the people are most of the clients are okay but there are some which dog on it so that we can do it. Okay. Unknown 38:34 And then, I mean, we also use like intuition for prototyping envision. Yeah, we can I do. Okay. Unknown 38:46 But Sonic. Unknown 38:48 I don't think so exactly the FEMA, FEMA. Yeah, it's a collaborative designed to a lot of schools, actually. Yeah. Unknown 39:00 We know the developer tools, so. Unknown 39:06 So now let's come back to the tricky part. So, do you collect security requirements or exclusively Unknown 39:15 hardly title. Unknown 39:18 And what would be the reason, because you do not have expertise in the company. Unknown 39:24 It is not really concerned as such from the customer side so, yeah. Normally the customer does not wish to collect those things so what we do we, we like, tell them, or yeah we tell them where to store what data. So, I mean, yeah, if it's a password from a customer then it has to be stored and teachers of like that so so you have standard things which I wish to each and every exactly, but you do not have any exports acid security experts in the company. Unknown 40:01 Okay, we somehow we had one project where we had an external company who did it. Unknown 40:08 So yeah, they look without to our code and stuff, and tried to hack it, and that was fun. Unknown 40:18 So have you ever encounter any security breach in your apps. We have once. Unknown 40:25 Some years ago, which was it towards the identified. How did you discover. Unknown 40:32 Somebody told us that he has. It was, it was an app for Android and iOS, and he had a blackberry so I think it was a day, what's a dating app so you want to use it. So yeah, he was, he was, he wrote the code for his blackberry and the new Stelzer. Unknown 40:51 Okay. Unknown 40:52 And what are the consequences. Unknown 40:55 We changed encryption for for the communication. Okay. Unknown 41:00 I'm asking these questions because we also have my colleagues are working on Android API users of strange things happening. Unknown 41:10 Just because usually developers do not know. They do not have even slightest amount of security related. Unknown 41:18 So quite strange, Unknown 41:22 strange things via the data was to with security here. Through the even one of our students, he was able to download music from Spotify and so on. Unknown 41:35 Without Kenya. Unknown 41:37 So it's, it's possible. Unknown 41:42 Have you ever seen as a company, ever faced any legal challenge. Unknown 41:48 I don't think so. Unknown 41:50 No. Unknown 41:53 Okay. Unknown 41:54 Do you have any legal experts in the company or. Unknown 41:58 Yes, in house Yes, yeah. Unknown 42:02 And what is the purpose of my contacts Unknown 42:11 GDPR so we just had him for this sort of like, three, four months ago. Unknown 42:19 Okay. Unknown 42:21 Do you have any copyrights all agents for your any of your apps. Unknown 42:26 We do but normally I actually don't know the test. So, normally the code is I actually don't know who is who owns it. Yes, I agree. Oh, it just, if the customer. Ask especially like specific for it Unknown 42:45 depends on the customer. Okay. But we do. Yeah, we do. So you at least think about it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Unknown 42:53 Good. Unknown 42:56 No. Unknown 42:59 Let's come back to the next part, we will try to see if, in general mobile app development is different and software. Unknown 43:07 What are the challenges of the monies and some interesting things. Unknown 43:14 So, in your, in your opinion, like what are the differences between something Unknown 43:26 for me, doesn't really make a difference. Just a fascinating. Unknown 43:34 Yeah, I think for me it doesn't really mean. There's no difference. Unknown 43:39 I mean, it really depends on what you compared to if you like compare it to web development, which we also do. One of the big differences that you have to support like different versions of Europe. Unknown 43:59 Yeah, I mean, on the web, it's always your newest version right and that's what give you some hints. I don't want to, but. Unknown 44:09 But anyway, so the difference. Yeah. Unknown 44:17 Otherwise, I mean, the thing is that. Unknown 44:24 No, actually. Yeah. comes to managing. So for example, but normal applications, or even build applications, you're able to I think deploy a couple of times a day. Yeah, exactly. But when it comes to mobile apps, you're kind of limited to the app stores stores. Yeah. Just have what exists. No, not so far, no. Unknown 44:47 Yeah, so yeah we we do a lot of planning of releases and we, I think we tested much more than we do in the web apps. Okay. And what's the reason. Unknown 45:00 Yeah, because if you release something which isn't or has a buck that it takes at least one day until you have more time for what fixes, how fixes. Unknown 45:16 In the last year I think the average time was lacking. Unknown 45:19 Yeah. Unknown 45:21 I mean, iOS, Android too much for us right so it's it's maybe four hours. Unknown 45:28 This do this differences have anything to do with the we get to the climate's. Unknown 45:40 I think so yeah I mean, we, we have to I mean we have to, we know that so we have to respect it and I think we don't really look at those stuff but we still know that, so you just have to wrap up. Unknown 45:56 Yeah. Why decided okay this is what you need. Yeah, so you just contacting my deployments, changing things. Yeah, actually, normally we do a lack of internal testing. So we just, we try things out. and then only if it's really okay then we like. Put that version into store right. We do like some builds just internally until diversion says finished us we want to be. Unknown 46:28 I mean one other thing, I guess, different to our software engineering is that like the offline. Unknown 46:37 You hold of Lansing so you pass, or you have to decide if he has to work offline or not, which is not always that easy. Unknown 46:49 And then of course a lot of, like, almost every in every of our app has like location services, which you normally don't use, and which is not that easy to do. Right. Unknown 47:04 So you would say I mean, You did not have this in such because you're not really from a software background. Yeah, but he said about the release to hire that would like oh yeah true temperature big difference for me to like plan the web projects, that's for sure. Unknown 47:20 Do non functional requirements, play different roles for mobile apps, normal it's office Amish good apps. Unknown 47:28 Yeah, I think so. I mean, but yeah there are like other challenges. For example, I mean all the stuff I talked about before, I mean the, how can you like access stuff is the size of the screen size of the screen. Yeah. Unknown 47:49 Do you also like different devices, different screen sizes, does it affect your foolishness. Unknown 47:57 Actually we don't have that many, we actually, I don't think we have an app, which is the same for tablets and smartphones. So we do tablet apps as well but there are like on a tablet apps. So there are we don't really have like, totally different approaches for those things. Unknown 48:20 And I mean that the screen size. Today you also have this have feet on the web right so I mean a lot of people use. I think almost 60% of the usage comes from mobile. Unknown 48:34 So we do a lot of mobile first and in web development. Unknown 48:43 The way you gotta requirements, does it change for my apps from normal software. Unknown 48:51 I don't think so. Unknown 48:53 We do is quite the same. With our web apps. Unknown 49:02 What are the biggest challenges in gathering requirements. Unknown 49:06 I think we already talked about, you know, Unknown 49:11 I think the biggest challenges that the client, which doesn't know what he wants nothing changes his mind after a while. Unknown 49:25 Yeah, they don't know the end user are done, didn't think about who will use it or and yada yada thing is that normally be like, gather requirements and already start like developing it and then the client comes in. Unknown 49:48 For instance, I'll also give you a hint here. Unknown 49:52 So I asked this question to this other guy. Unknown 49:54 So he said, it's really hard sometimes to foresee things when it comes to mobile apps. And he gave me an example. Unknown 50:03 So, usually mobile apps you know to use with internet connected to your Wi Fi, sorry, the data. Unknown 50:13 But once what happened. Is he the client or the end user was somewhere in the hotel, and he was supposed to connect to the Wi Fi, and the wife I had a firewall. Unknown 50:25 So, whatever he wanted to do. It could not happen point was not successful. There was a response coming back. The response was perfect, but because of this firewall, whatever was there. So they did not foresee this use case. Unknown 50:42 And this was very difficult for, because it was so doesn't happen like these kind of things. Yeah, yeah. Unknown 50:53 Unknown scenarios, or, which you can only learn through experience. Yeah, it happens but yeah, it happens quite often, but I actually don't remember any Unknown 51:11 specific case either, but it happens quite often. Unknown 51:16 It's just because you have when you have an act it's like having everywhere in the web, you just use it, either at home or in your soul. Unknown 51:29 With an act during the train. I don't know where. Always use it because you have never drops and so now of course, what happens in those cases how the and behaves. Unknown 51:40 So this would be, I would assume that it would be challenging thing. It is a challenging thing but, I mean, I guess we got used to to like respected and yeah, I mean every network call you up like an error state, which us to handle. So, yeah, and that's something which. Unknown 52:00 Yeah, we didn't do that well in the beginning but now we know it and I'm assuming we also tell the designers that they have to know it. and. Unknown 52:12 And I know an example which was quite. We did like a full time author, we had like virtual reality thing where you can look around right. And then there was one guy who had like such a crappy phone that he didn't have any compensated. Unknown 52:30 So he did it couldn't look at this stuff, and so exactly the things which you cannot do it. Unknown 52:37 Yeah. Unknown 52:38 And then I mean yeah then the customer gets back to you and said, if that thing doesn't work. This is what you're doing. Yeah, except Unknown 52:49 did App Store checks from Google Play or Apple. Unknown 52:55 Apple App Store. Unknown 52:56 Security checks they have designed checks they have to the outer your process. Unknown 53:04 Yeah. Because I appetizer very strict design. That's right. Unknown 53:09 I mean, sometimes it's just, just, if you upload the wrong screen screen review a preview, for example, that's the thing. Unknown 53:21 I mean that it's not a big thing but yeah it can cost you like one or two days. Exactly. That's what. So it's a problem right. Yeah. Unknown 53:29 And the problem is, is I would say that it's like they change it all the time and you never know, sometimes it works and then you try it again and then it's like, yeah, it's wrong, and you're like half but I did it one week ago and Dave was fine, so. Unknown 53:45 He also mentioned the same thing that usually these app stores they change their policies, and then not communicated with the companies are the winners, and you usually do the same thing again and it just breaks or something else is wrong. Unknown 53:59 Like, I think it depends on the have testers, and depends who you talk to me, but I'm not, I'm not quite sure yet, but it was Unknown 54:11 a weird like a big thing with the, the Apple App Store, why we wanted to publish an app, which was for the chocolate company I told you about. Unknown 54:25 And they have like you have like a login or you have to log into bags and they don't know all the drivers because they have like subcontractors. So, so Apple didn't want to allow we can just store because you are if you bought, or if you downloaded the app you couldn't do anything with it. Unknown 54:44 But if I mean if a driver down south down city can like looking and doing stuff. So they said that in the App Store they're all the apps, they have to be for everybody, or you have to you have to be able to sign up for it. Unknown 55:01 And, and they told us that we should do an enterprise account. And, which wasn't, which we couldn't do either because I mean it was another company because they're like top contributors. So it was a really long back and forth. And in the end we just put in like some web Were you with some information about the company so they accepted it. Unknown 55:30 And this, I think this was over, he was almost a month until we like replanted until we came to start because then we had to develop the the new stuff is missing, in your opinion, is more very nice Apple App Store not bringing more or which one is more general. Unknown 55:55 They call different troubles. Yeah. I mean, on the Apple App Store your stuff is tested which is sometimes also quite nice. If something doesn't work then you know, and you didn't realize it, you got it back right. Unknown 56:10 And, which isn't done on Google Apps are though. Yeah. So, but yeah I mean, it's normally it's easier to get their version of the Play Store, and they start Unknown 56:26 the requirements gathering process doesn't depend on external factors such as voice version or external libraries, their versions and so on. Unknown 56:38 Yes, so we normally have the client which voice versions he wants to support. And normally they are, they aren't really an opinion on it so we tell them to support the last two versions. On the iOS and Android. Unknown 56:58 You know we just look at the numbers and see what it's like. Do you have any requirements from customers that okay. This action support these many versions of operating Yeah, sometimes we do. Unknown 57:11 Okay. Unknown 57:15 Do you consider any troubles which might be troubles for people like old people, or nine people or gets Unknown 57:26 occupants. It depends on the customer and I think it's also a question with a version when we know when they're older target group for example could be that they have all the phones or version so that all kinds of things. Unknown 57:42 You have to consider. And then, yeah, really depending on the customer, but have you ever have you ever considered old people, for example. Oh, yes. Thank you, depends on the app, which we do, but we have. I mean we develop the again for kids so it was obvious that my kids are able to play it. And we have also apps, which we know that our people really use is quite obvious to me it's more like the size, the letters or like that it's really easy and clear where they have to click or what can they do so you, so you make decisions concert concert consciously in that case right, yeah. Unknown 58:30 We also make user tests. Unknown 58:32 Does Google Analytics play, or give you any insights in that particular actually don't know, I think so. Unknown 58:42 Yeah I think so juicy DHS in Google Analytics. Unknown 58:47 But I don't think we have ever like look at it. Unknown 58:52 Yeah. Unknown 58:54 Actually, I think you get the location and the mobile device and so on. Unknown 59:00 Even the browser. Unknown 59:04 Agent commission, and I mean what do you also do is like the example with with the trucker app I mean there we know that those people are trying to use it so they're not like really technical, and so that we use, like easy controls and big control. On the one side and the oldest set on to decide to be doing a lot of prophets which come from Eastern Europe and I mean they don't have the newest phone and stuff so he has to work no phones so how do you do testing for multiple devices. And normally by hands like. Unknown 59:47 Okay. Unknown 59:50 Oh. Have you made any platform constraints. Unknown 59:55 Regarding app size on. Unknown 59:59 For example, I think for Android. Play Store you have a mature but you cannot have more than 60,000 methods. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, not anymore it's not that bad anymore but that was the case yeah it was the case here. So, did you ever face this Yeah. Unknown 1:00:18 I mean, normally don't face it yourself but Unknown 1:00:23 even they have had that could not be 15 megabytes or something. Unknown 1:00:29 I don't think we ever faced that but like the with the methods. Yeah, yeah, yeah, was it was a big challenge, but it's not that bad anymore. Now it's actually quite easy to. Unknown 1:00:42 And I hear you have like the age that we're seeing Unknown 1:00:49 a female and she's like, you know, we never actually, or I never did it so, at least for the reps who are like cleared this ah, we know from the beginning and we don't put on the check it. Unknown 1:01:07 With this could be helpful right in any way. Unknown 1:01:13 Now these questions are like rapid rapid fire. So, towards the end. Unknown 1:01:22 So I'll give you some keywords, and you tell me if these things are crucial for apps, mobile phone conclusion. Sorry. Our confirmation. Yes. What would you say yes. Unknown 1:01:40 I think you already on separate operating system generations or mobile phone devices, different devices. Unknown 1:01:48 Yes, but actually notice. Unknown 1:01:53 I mean they hadn't got quite easy easier easier. Unknown 1:01:58 What would you say, I think it's easier but still not. Unknown 1:02:07 Yeah. Unknown 1:02:09 coffeemaker third party libraries, and the virgins. Unknown 1:02:15 And they're watching their versions. Unknown 1:02:19 Yes, yes, I'm like, Okay, so this is the first, third party libraries, America. Yeah. Unknown 1:02:35 Yeah. Unknown 1:02:43 Nick I think if I understand because you do not yeah but actually she has to go to the client and tell them that we have to update stuff. Unknown 1:02:51 So, Unknown 1:02:55 yeah, yeah. Unknown 1:03:02 Mobile advertisements, and revenue generation through these advertisements. Unknown 1:03:06 No, not at all. Unknown 1:03:11 So you do not want our field, actually. So, I think we have advertising would like one Unknown 1:03:19 general can comment, like how it is an industry so Mobile Ads play an important role for companies, actually. Unknown 1:03:33 Okay, user feedback on app stores. Unknown 1:03:38 We try that the customer does by himself, because, yeah. Unknown 1:03:45 But we always get the customer, like the feedback from users, we always see that, because we are in this little too. So, but we try not to that we have to answer them are actually yeah we would do it but normally the client doesn't want doesn't pay us for it so we can't really do it, but I think it's really important. Yeah. And in case you have to do it how you do it you read manually or. Yeah. Yes, so you are not aware of the tools. Unknown 1:04:17 And it's better if, like, I think for for user, it makes more sense to get an email from, like, if they use an app, they get an email from the company. Yeah, is from a note from a tripod, email, but because I've seen at least with this particular thing user feedback on App Stores, so they have a couple of papers written last year, which was basically you know, natural language processing. Okay, couple of tools array. Unknown 1:04:49 Oh, yeah, which is also use what we tell and so on. Yeah, so we just kind of just follow certain tags, and then try to see what people are saying negative emotions or positive emotions and kind of cluster those. Okay. But this is useful when you have, let's say feedback more than thousand. Unknown 1:05:12 Yeah, I think this way smarter than you can handle it without such a tool. Unknown 1:05:18 And if you have a problem you get like a number of bug reports and then you can just copy paste. Yes, I couldn't imagine this would work for apps like Tinder. Yeah sure, Facebook, where you have just enormous amount of feedback. Unknown 1:05:34 Oh, how about data privacy. Is it a crucial point Unknown 1:05:42 actually getting more important, it's getting more important to the customer. It's not that time after they're getting stricter, so that's affects us because we have to, you know, sometimes change things in the apps to align their requirements, how do you keep yourself updated with these things day right right that's that we have to take on. Unknown 1:06:14 Okay. Are you getting email that your database is not like their requirements you have to change the Unknown 1:06:27 legal constraints of the country. Unknown 1:06:38 Yeah. Unknown 1:06:41 Last question. Unknown 1:06:45 What is the impression about progressively let's Unknown 1:06:50 do you know about it. Yeah, I mean I cannot do that. Unknown 1:06:55 Do I think it's. Unknown 1:07:02 I think the important thing is that you use the right tool for a job. So they are like, there are a lot of apps which don't have to be apps anymore, because I mean it's still, it's still more work to do an effort to do it right, and which you can also do with a progressive web. Unknown 1:07:27 But, I mean, could they be more useful in certain use cases. Yeah I think so, yeah, because you can distribute distribute them faster and stuff like that so. So all that stuff you haven't got those problems you haven't covered in progress. So I mean, you can always bypass your app stores Yeah exactly. So you can be much more flexible external employee. Unknown 1:07:54 But as soon. I mean, we also try to tell our client them if they need to have birthday, Bangalore with with with a web app or rest of forever. Unknown 1:08:06 And I mean as soon. Unknown 1:08:10 Progressive Web App, they, I think they get there but until now i mean if you use like occasions camera and stuff like that. It's still, I still prefer a normal, but you will never have. You do not have any experience so funny. Unknown 1:08:29 Do customers usually know about. Unknown 1:08:33 Some of them there's nothing. Unknown 1:08:35 I think that's just really important to, like, ask the right questions in the beginning, for today needed and then we can support them in the decision, but. Unknown 1:08:47 Perfect. So I'm done with the questions. Unknown 1:08:51 If you have any other teams which you can think about to talk to any, Unknown 1:09:02 which you would like to share anything interesting, interesting experiences, for example. Unknown 1:09:15 Actually, I, today I had like an interesting experience with. Unknown 1:09:21 I was I was at the client's place and they had like one customer which wasn't able to login anymore, because he had like too much data. And then we fixed it and today came to, so we try the if he can. If he if he's able to login again. And it was really interesting to get to get like the the insights how he uses the center. Unknown 1:09:47 So, which was, there was like stuff, which we never thought about it so that for example there's like an image in the app where you come to them and because we never thought of you and to be able to. So what he does is he takes a print screen and then terms the transcript stuff. Yeah, I think it's really, it's really great to talk to customer directly to see like the challenges they go. And I don't think we do it enough actually or nobody in the industry does it really have. Do you use any of your own apps. Unknown 1:10:23 Yeah. Yeah. So them. But, yeah, and by using Do you also realize, Oh, this is not really good articles, awesome. Unknown 1:10:35 I can really say that since I'm working in this business, I told, I mean, my view on websites of x completely change, because you see different things like oh yeah that's it looks like you can tap on it but you can, that's not very well done, for example, things like that, that's for sure. Unknown 1:10:56 Yeah, I see a lot of stuff which I, I mean I also see the. I know what happens behind right. And I know how I would do it differently afterwards. Unknown 1:11:06 I mean, one of the, one of the, I mean the great same thing at agencies that it's really, you have a lot of different American economic change though, but they're not so great thing is that you'll never have time to fix, and there's also no money from the company to do to do that kind of it so you just have to live it. Unknown 1:11:30 Perfect. Unknown 1:11:31 I just bought this thing. Sure. This transcript was generated by https://otter.ai